User:Robertinventor/Simple animals could live in Martian brines - Extended Interview with planetary scientist Vlada Stamenković: Difference between revisions

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Now published as [[Sponges on Mars? We ask Stamenković about their oxygen-rich briny seeps model]]
 
Please don't share. For publishing to my own wiki and blog. This article is mid edit. If you spot any errors be sure to say! [[User:Robertinventor|Robertinventor]] ([[User talk:Robertinventor|talk]]) 13:24, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
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Some background may help before we get to the main interview with Vlada Stamenković.
 
(skip to [[#Interview]])
If you want to go straight to the interview itself, it's here:
(* skip to [[#Interview]])
 
===Why salty water?===
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[[File:Halichondria panicea.jpg|thumb|Halichondria panicea or the breadcrumb sponge- Stamenković et al's paper cites research by Mills et al using this sponge which showed it can survive with only 0.002 moles per cubic meter (0.064 mg per liter). This new research suggests that these concentrations can be achieved in {{w|Supercooling|supercooled}} brines on modern Mars in polar regions.]]
Since cold brines take up more oxygen, it's no surprise that they found the highest concentrations in polar regions. That's where theyit foundreaches therethe wouldlevels behigh enough for simple sponges.
[[File:PIA22546-Mars-AnnualCO2ice-N&SPoles-20180806.gif|thumb|Extents of north (left) and south (right) polar CO<sub>2</sub> ice during a Martian year. These are not photos, rather they are based on infrared data from two instruments that can study the poles even at times of complete darkness. The dry ice here reaches temperature of around -125&nbsp;°C, well below its sublimation temperature of -78.5&nbsp;°C, which gives an idea of how cold the Martian poles get in winter. In Vlada Stamenković et al's model the highest oxygen concentrations occur at temperatures down to -123 to -133&nbsp;°C.]]
 
They citebase athis on another paper from 2014 that showed that some simple sponges can survive with only 0.002 {{w|Mole (unit)|moles}}per cubic meter (0.064 mg per liter) <!-- first page of Nature paper, "Meanwhile, whereas aerobic microbial life and simple animals need O<sub>2</sub> dissolved in liquids in sufficiently large concentrations to survive, recent experiments, observations and calculations have lowered the required limits of concentrations of dissolved O<sub>2</sub> for aerobic respiration to ~10−6 mol m−3 in microorganisms and to ~2 × 10−3 mol m−3 in sponges"-->.
 
They paidlooked particularclosely attention toat two brines, magnesium and calcium perchloratesperchlorate, common on Mars. IfPrevious theypapers startshow offthat starting with these brines in a warmer liquid state in Mars simulation experiments, they can be {{w|Supercooling|supercooled}} to temperatures as low as -123 to -133&nbsp;°C stillwhile remaining liquid, andbefore thenthey transform to a glassy state in simulation experiments. TheyThis cansupercooling beworks supercooledeven likewhen thisthe evensalty whenbrines are mixed with the martian soil of Mars (regolith). It's at these very low temperatures that they will reach the optimal oxygen concentrations can be reached.
 
TheyThe foundoxygen thatconcentrations in supercooled calcium perchlorate brines can reach oxygen concentrationsgot high enough for simple sponges in regions poleward of about 67.5° to the north and about 72.5° to the south. CloserAs you get closer to the poles, oxygen concentrations could go higher, reaching 0.2 moles per cubic meter (6.4 mg per liter). This is not far off levels typical of sea water on Earth.
 
'''''(background information):''''' on Earth, the most oxygen you can get in warm sea water is about 0.28 moles per cubic meter (9 mg per liter) at 20&nbsp;°C which increasess to 0.34 moles per cubic meter (11 mg per liter) at 0&nbsp;°C because cold water takes up the oxygen more readily.<!-- see for instance the two "Dissolved Oxygen" cites in the Background sources-->.
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===How could life use oxygen at such low temperatures?===
 
'''''(background information):''''' LifeEarth getsmicrobes slowerlive in the andslow slowerlane at lower temperatures to the point where individual microbes have lifetimes of millennia. Such life is hard to study. It's almost impossible to tell whether it is a) active and able to reproduce at those temperatures or b) active and not able to reproduce, or c) intermittently sometimes active and sometimes dormant. The reproduction can't be studied using cell counts. But the usual limit cited is -20&nbsp;°C<!-- see discussion in A new analysis of Mars "Special Regions" -->. That's well above the lowest temperatures studied in the paper which go down to -133&nbsp;°C.
 
# active and able to reproduce at those temperatures
# active and not able to reproduce, or
# intermittently sometimes active and sometimes dormant.
 
Researchers can't study the reproduction of such slowly growing cells using cell counts. Perhaps it is possible at lower temperatures, but the usual limit cited is -20&nbsp;°C<!-- see discussion in A new analysis of Mars "Special Regions" -->. That's well above the lowest Martian temperatures studied in the paper of -133&nbsp;°C.
 
Is Martian life able to reproduce below these temperatures?
 
<!-- This para summarizes the Schulze-Makuch paper in the background information section -->
Dirk Schulze-Makuch, hoever, has proposed that Martian life might evolve an exotic metabolism with the perchlorates of Mars taking the place of the salts inside the cells of Earth life. This would have advantages on Mars, with the brines inside their own cells acting as an anti-freeze to protect them against extreme cold. Also with theirThese salts beingare soalso very hygroscopic, theywhich maymight help themlife of this sort (if it exists) to scavenge water from the atmosphere and their surroundings.
 
With this background, Wikinews asked:
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The other possibility is that microbes can continue to function at very low temperatures in the Martian conditions. After the interview I discovered that they go into this for their paper in a section ''"3.2 The lower temperature limit for life and the potential of aerobic habitats"'' in the supplementary information.
 
When microbes that are able to live atin extremely cold conditions are cooled down, the interior doesn't freeze but changes to a glassy state (Intracellular vitrification). So the microbes would be able to be cooled down this far without being damaged.
 
It would then depend on whether the cells can keep their intercellular fluids liquid as they cool down. If they can, this will keep the viscosity low, and permit vigorous metabolic processes to continue. If their interior changes to a glassy state then some metabolic processes do still continue but only very slowly in these vitrified cells.
 
[[File:MarsOxides.jpg|thumb|Curiosity's discovery image for the manganese-oxide minerals at a location called "Windjana,". These require abundant water and strongly oxidizing conditions to form. With the new theory these conditions may be present on Mars today, previously thought to be only possible on early Mars.]]
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===Special minerals on Mars===
 
Their'''''(background researchinformation):''''' alsoOpportunity helpsdiscovered tomanganese explain the presence of some mineralsoxygens on the Mars. surface, such as manganese oxides whichThese require conditions of water and oxygen to form. Some researchers havhave suggested they formed in an early Mars atmosphere that was thick and oxygen rich (whichnot doesn'tnecessarily requiredue to life; - it could for instance be oxygen rich due to ionizing radiation splitting water). This new reseach shows that these minerals could also form without an oxygen rich atmosphere.
'''''(background information):''''' The idea that Mars had enough oxygen in the past for marine animals, billions of years ago, when the atmosphere was thicker, is not too surprising nowadays since the discovery of those manganese oxides. That it may have enough right now is what is so very surprising about this new research, given that it has such a thin atmosphere, with so little oxygen in it. The atmosphere is unbreathable, its trace amounts of oxygen can't be used by any form of terrestrial animal life, but the brines may be another story.
 
Their research gives an alternative explanation for these minerals, by concentrating the minute traces of oxygen in the atmosphere into the water.
Their research also helps to explain the presence of some minerals on the Mars surface, such as manganese oxides which require conditions of water and oxygen to form. Some researchers hav suggested they formed in an early Mars atmosphere that was thick and oxygen rich (which doesn't require life; it could for instance be oxygen rich due to ionizing radiation splitting water). This new reseach shows that these minerals could also form without an oxygen rich atmosphere.
 
As previously interviewed by National Geographic (October 22):
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:: {{WNIQ}} Does your TH2OR use TDEM like the Mars 94 mission - and will it use natural ULF sources such as solar wind, diurnal variations in ionosphere heating and lightning?
::'''VS''': The physical principle it uses is the same and this has been used for groundwater detection on the Earth for many decades; it’s Faraday’s law of induction in media that are electrically conducting (as slightly saline water is).''<br><br>''However, we will focus on creating our own signal as we do not know whether the EM fields needed for such measurements exist on Mars. However, we will also account for the possibility of already existing fields.
 
 
==Background information - whyhistory oxygenof isideas soof significantoxygen for multicellularbreathing life on Mars==
 
A historical 101 on multicellular life on Mars may be of interest here. First, of course back in the early twentieth century there was much speculation about oxygen breathing multicellular life there, with Lowell even speculating that intelligent Martians built the canals that he thought he could see in his telescope. By the time of early spaceflight it was already clear that the atmosphere was far too thin for terrestrial animals, but there was some hope for plant life. But the early observations from space showed a barren crater covered land and since then the idea of life on Mars has focused mainly on anaerobic microbes and photosynthetic life.
 
By the time of the first orbital robotic space missions to Mars, it was already clear that the atmosphere was far too thin for terrestrial animals, but there was some hope for plant life. However, the early observations from space showed a barren crater covered land and since then the idea of life on Mars has focused mainly on anaerobic microbes and photosynthetic life.
 
<!-- For next para: Vera et al in the background information is an example of papers on lichens such as Pleopsidium chlorophanum for Mars and the DLR source gives an overview of their experiments into lichens and blue-green algae-->
In 2014, however, researchers for DLR, Vera et al surprised many astrobiologists with their experimental result that multicellular lifelichens could bepotentially possiblegrow on present day Mars. ButThis is multicellular life, but only in the form of photosynthetic life able to produce its own oxygen. SomeThey took some lichens, such as {{w|Pleopsidium chlorophanum}} arethat were able to survive in close to Mars-like conditions high up on Antarctic mountain ranges, andsurviving only on the humidity in the air without any water. These did show promise in Mars simulation chamber experiments. They can do this because the algal component is able to make the oxygen needed by its fungal component. They can also do this without needing any extra water as intermediary, in the experiments they are able to grow in partial shade, using only the night time humidity of the atmosphere itself.
 
InIt principleis youalso couldpossible alsoto have microscopic (submulticellular millimeteranimals sized)that multicellularcan animalsmanage inwithout anoxicoxygen conditionsat all (sub millimeter sized). There are only a three species of suchthese creatures known on Earth, however, and they are not candidates for life on Mars. They are three species of {{W|Loricifera#In_anoxic_environment| Loricifera}}, tiny animals about the size of a large amoeba, are able to survive without oxygen in deep extremely salty mud sediments in the Mediterranean.<!--See sources in linked Wikipedia article and: Animals thrive without oxygen at sea bottom in background sources -->
 
==Background information - why oxygen is so significant for multicellular life==
<!--Note to reviewer - optional section on background information which I thought might help some readers.-->
<!-- summarizes Catling et al from 2014 in background section -->
ThereAn isoxygen muchbreathing moreorganism energycan availableget tofar anmore organismenergy from the same amount of food with oxygen. Without oxygen, the {{w|Glucose|glucose}} that's the source of energy in Earth organisms can only be broken up into two {{w|Pyruvic acid|pyruvate}} molecules (each of 3 carbon atoms). This process produces two molecules of {{w|Adenosine triphosphate|ATP}}, the energy molecule that powers our cells. This worksis quicklya fast reaction, but the amount of energy it produces is limited;. it'sThis is the energy production method used in sprinter's "fast twitch" white muscle fibers. When Usain Bolt ran his 100 meters sprint he was relying on this chemical process. He wasn't really using much oxygen, mainly it was using up stores of glucose in his fast twitch muscles.
 
WithThis is not much use if you want to run a marathon however. Luckily for us, if you use oxygen, glucose can also be reduced all the way to carbon dioxide, and in the process {{w|Cellular respiration#Efficiency of ATP production|30 or 32 ATP molecules}} can be produced from a single molecule of glucose. This is the type of energy production used in the "slow twitch" red muscle fibers of a {{w|Marathon|marathon runner}}, or {{w|Ultramarathon|ultramarathon}} runner. It lets them run for many miles using little by way of glucose from their food. It amounts to (about 100 calories ofin excess calories over the resting metabolic calories, depending on body mass, or around 25 grams of glucose per mile, which in turn is derived from {{w|Glycogen|glycogen}} and then fat as the race progresses). In this way a large organism can sustain itself with little by way of food if it relies on oxygen.
[[File:Spinoloricus.png|thumb|This tiny animal, which never grows larger than a millimeter in size, is a species of {{w|Loricifera#In_anoxic_environment|loricifera}}, a rare multicellular anaerobe. Shown this colour because it is stained with Rose Bengal. Scale bar is 50 μm. In 2014, Carling et al. showed from general energetic considerations that should also apply to extraterrestrial carbon based life, that it is not easy for a food chain of anaerobes to sustain complex lifeforms even as large as 10 cms in diameter {{Image source|Danovaro et al.}}]]
WithoutA oxygenlifeform athat lifeformcan't woulduse oxygen needneeds to eat more than ten times as much food to get the same amount of energy as one that can use oxygen. It is hard for it to grow large because so much food is needed just to sustain itself and for reproduction. On Earth we don't know of any {{w|Anaerobic organism|anaerobes}} (organisms that can manage without oxygen) larger than those three species of {{w|Loricifera#In_anoxic_environment|loricifera}}, which are less than a millimeter in size. Anaerobes can buld large structures, as with the {{w|Stromatolite|stromatolites}}, which build up layer by layer but only the outermost layer, a thin biofilm, is actually alive.
 
It is possible for microbes to slowly build large structures without breathing oxygen, as with the {{w|Stromatolite|stromatolites}}, which build up layer by layer. However, only the outermost layer, a thin biofilm, is actually alive. Lichens of course do use oxygen, produced by the algal component. Trees and other plants produce oxygen but also use it at night.
 
What about extraterrestrial life though? Could it use something else in place of oxygen? Well, perhaps, but there is some earlier research that may suggest that it couldn't get very large. In 2005, Catling et al investigated the amount of energy available to carbon based organisms if with and without the use of oxygen in their metabolism. Oxygen produces the largest amount of free energy per electron transfer apart from fluorine and bromine, which are too reactive to build up in quantities useful to life. They found on general energetic principles that itextraterrestrial life would still needs oxygen to sustain large complex lifeforms, from around 10 cms in size or larger. This is for any extraterrestrial food web for carbon based life.
 
They worked it out by looking at how many smaller organisms are needed to support larger ones in the food web. For aerobic life the number of organisms in a food web is inversely proportional to the mass, if you are ten times heavier then there are ten times fewer of you in the food web. These numbers are much less for {{w|Anaerobic organism|anaerobes}}.
 
According to Catling et al's modeling, if an organism is a hundred times larger (and so a million times more massive) in an aerobic food web then it's a million times less numerous (you'd have only one large organism for a million smaller ones).
 
Meanwhile an organism that's a hundred times larger in an anaerobic food web is a billion times less numerous in an anaerobic food web.
 
According to Catling et al's modeling, if an organism is a hundred times larger (and so a million times more massive), then organisms of that size are a million times less numerous in an aerobic food web, but the same size of organism is a billion times less numerous in an anaerobic food web. So for instance, if you have a 200 micron organism preying on 20 micron organisms and they in turn on 2 micron organisms then for a billion of the 2 micron organisms there will be only a thousandththousand of the 200 micron organisms in an aerobic numbersfood chain, but only one in an anaerobic food chain. By the time you get to large organisms of 10 cm scale or larger they should be almost non existent in an anaerobic food web.
 
So, ifIf Catling et al are correct in their inference here, then on general energetic principles that an extraterrestrial biosphere with large carbon based animals, at least of 10 cms scale or larger, is going to need oxygen. It seems to apply to Earth anyway. In anoxic environments, Earth animals have found it a challenge to get as large as 1 mm in size without oxygen, though it is possible that larger creatures lived on Earth when the seas were all anoxic.
 
Whether or not this applies generally to all extra terrestrial life, it does seem to apply to Earth life. In anoxic environments, Earth animals have found it a challenge to get as large as 1 mm in size without oxygen. It is possible that larger creatures lived on Earth when the seas were all anoxic before the Great Oxygenation Event. There are no surviving multicellular lifeforms from those times but they would be likely to be soft tissued and hard to preserve.
 
==Technical details - guide to paper==
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The paper is available to read in its entirety through the link provided on the author's website and the Nature Sharedit sharing initiative.
 
==Background information - historical context==
 
A historical 101 on multicellular life on Mars may be of interest here. First, of course back in the early twentieth century there was much speculation about multicellular life there, with Lowell even speculating that intelligent Martians built the canals that he thought he could see in his telescope. By the time of early spaceflight it was already clear that the atmosphere was far too thin for terrestrial animals, but there was some hope for plant life. But the early observations from space showed a barren crater covered land and since then the idea of life on Mars has focused mainly on anaerobic microbes and photosynthetic life.
 
<!-- For next para: Vera et al in the background information is an example of papers on lichens such as Pleopsidium chlorophanum for Mars and the DLR source gives an overview of their experiments into lichens and blue-green algae-->
In 2014, however, Vera et al surprised many astrobiologists with their experimental result that multicellular life could be possible on present day Mars. But only photosynthetic life able to produce its own oxygen. Some lichens, such as {{w|Pleopsidium chlorophanum}} are able to survive in close to Mars-like conditions high up on Antarctic mountain ranges, and show promise in Mars simulation chamber experiments. They can do this because the algal component is able to make the oxygen needed by its fungal component. They can also do this without needing any extra water as intermediary, in the experiments they are able to grow in partial shade, using only the night time humidity of the atmosphere itself.
 
In principle you could also have microscopic (sub millimeter sized) multicellular animals in anoxic conditions. There are only a three species of such creatures known on Earth, however, and they are not candidates for life on Mars. They are three species of {{W|Loricifera#In_anoxic_environment| Loricifera}}, tiny animals about the size of a large amoeba, are able to survive without oxygen in deep extremely salty mud sediments in the Mediterranean.<!--See sources in linked Wikipedia article and: Animals thrive without oxygen at sea bottom in background sources -->
 
==Background information - why oxygen is so significant for multicellular life==
<!--Note to reviewer - optional section on background information which I thought might help some readers.-->
<!-- summarizes Catling et al from 2014 in background section -->
There is much more energy available to an organism from the same amount of food with oxygen. Without oxygen, the {{w|Glucose|glucose}} that's the source of energy in Earth organisms can only be broken up into two {{w|Pyruvic acid|pyruvate}} molecules (each of 3 carbon atoms). This process produces two molecules of {{w|Adenosine triphosphate|ATP}}, the energy molecule that powers our cells. This works quickly but the amount of energy is limited; it's the energy production method used in sprinter's "fast twitch" white muscle fibers.
 
With oxygen, glucose can be reduced all the way to carbon dioxide, and in the process {{w|Cellular respiration#Efficiency of ATP production|30 or 32 ATP molecules}} can be produced from a single molecule of glucose. This is the type of energy production used in the "slow twitch" red muscle fibers of a {{w|Marathon|marathon runner}}, or {{w|Ultramarathon|ultramarathon}} runner. It lets them run for many miles using little by way of glucose from their food (about 100 calories of excess calories over the resting metabolic calories, depending on body mass, or around 25 grams of glucose per mile, which in turn is derived from {{w|Glycogen|glycogen}} and then fat as the race progresses). In this way a large organism can sustain itself with little by way of food if it relies on oxygen.
[[File:Spinoloricus.png|thumb|This tiny animal, which never grows larger than a millimeter in size, is a species of {{w|Loricifera#In_anoxic_environment|loricifera}}, a rare multicellular anaerobe. Shown this colour because it is stained with Rose Bengal. Scale bar is 50 μm. In 2014, Carling et al. showed from general energetic considerations that should also apply to extraterrestrial carbon based life, that it is not easy for a food chain of anaerobes to sustain complex lifeforms even as large as 10 cms in diameter {{Image source|Danovaro et al.}}]]
Without oxygen a lifeform would need to eat more than ten times as much food to get the same amount of energy. It is hard for it to grow large because so much food is needed just to sustain itself and for reproduction. On Earth we don't know of any {{w|Anaerobic organism|anaerobes}} (organisms that can manage without oxygen) larger than those three species of {{w|Loricifera#In_anoxic_environment|loricifera}}, which are less than a millimeter in size. Anaerobes can buld large structures, as with the {{w|Stromatolite|stromatolites}}, which build up layer by layer but only the outermost layer, a thin biofilm, is actually alive.
 
What about extraterrestrial life though? Could it use something else in place of oxygen? Well, perhaps, but there is some earlier research that may suggest that it couldn't get very large. In 2005, Catling et al investigated the amount of energy available to carbon based organisms if with and without the use of oxygen in their metabolism. Oxygen produces the largest amount of free energy per electron transfer apart from fluorine and bromine, which are too reactive to build up in quantities useful to life. They found on general energetic principles that it still needs oxygen to sustain large complex lifeforms, from around 10 cms in size or larger. This is for any extraterrestrial food web for carbon based life.
 
They worked it out by looking at how many smaller organisms are needed to support larger ones in the food web. For aerobic life the number of organisms in a food web is inversely proportional to the mass, if you are ten times heavier then there are ten times fewer of you in the food web. These numbers are much less for {{w|Anaerobic organism|anaerobes}}.
 
According to Catling et al's modeling, if an organism is a hundred times larger (and so a million times more massive), then organisms of that size are a million times less numerous in an aerobic food web, but the same size of organism is a billion times less numerous in an anaerobic food web. So for instance, if you have a 200 micron organism preying on 20 micron organisms and they in turn on 2 micron organisms then there will be only a thousandth of the aerobic numbers in an anaerobic food chain. By the time you get to large organisms of 10 cm scale or larger they should be almost non existent in an anaerobic food web.
 
So, if Catling et al are correct in their inference here, then on general energetic principles that an extraterrestrial biosphere with large carbon based animals, at least of 10 cms scale or larger, is going to need oxygen. It seems to apply to Earth anyway. In anoxic environments, Earth animals have found it a challenge to get as large as 1 mm in size without oxygen, though it is possible that larger creatures lived on Earth when the seas were all anoxic.
 
== Sources ==